First off, we clearly need to add watches into our canon here. I will be more diligent on that point.
The discussion led me to some interesting thinking about quality and its relationship to cost. Recently, we bought a car that we expect to hand down to our daughter. Until we got in it. It is a 2013 Suburu Legacy. It has a rear camera, heated leather seats, AWD, it is badass in the snow (found that out today) and wood paneling on the interior. We expect another 100,000 miles out of it. And we paid $6,000 for it.
We have owned expensive cars, that cost 10x and more what this Suburu cost. Yes, you can drink an open cup of tea in some of them without spilling, but is that worth $60,000?
With regard to watches, before I got sick, I owned a Rolex Submariner. Bought it new, in Greenwich, the notion of which now bottlenecks me. We had to sell it, but at the time, I had it and a Timex Weekender, which I still have, and I like the Weekender better.
There are a few facets of thinking that I would toss into this interesting discussion. And I will limit them to fashion. The first is:
Just because you can doesn’t mean you should, unless we are talking about OCBD’s. It is the Jordan betting argument. On the one hand, can he afford to lose a million dollars on a putt? Yes. But what is the value system where you lose sight of the ways you could lose that million and make the world better? Is it his right to lose a million on a putt? In some states, sure. But because you have the right, does that mean you should? Same on my scale. I have watches, and there are watches I want, but I have a daughter headed to college, designs to expand the site if you ever stop giving me crap about featuring advertisers, and a year where my wife had cancer to catch up on. What role does quality play in my decision to buy a watch? At this point, not much at all, right?
The exception, for me at least so far, is OCBD’s. That might be my OCBD OCD. But there, I cannot skimp. I feel it immediately, I feel entry level all day if I am not wearing a quality OCBD.
Then you drill down to what you really like. Recently, on Facebook Marketplace, I saw a Garmin watch that is big and black and digital. Everything non-Ivy. It was $60 and if you know about Garmin, they are very high tech watches that last. I bought it. Do you know I wear it all the time? What role does quality play in the purchase cycle versus what you just plain like? What role does fashion play in the purchase cycle versus what you just plain like? This watch is anything but Ivy. It is too big, it is digital. But I love it. What now?
Finally, in cars and in watches, the market has closed the gap. The computerization of design, the absence of the hand, has leveled the playing field to where my Suburu is equal (or damn close) to your Beemer. Same with watches. Hand craftsmanship was a differentiator. But there are not many hands anymore. So quality gets distributed more evenly.
Clothes, though, do seem to fall out differently. Maybe that is because they are on my body? Maybe that is because I move with them all day? I am lucky, I am around quality clothes a lot. But if I weren’t, how much would that matter to me? I have often said, you give me $500 in Target and $5,000 in Brooks and I can build you two wardrobes that the difference of would be shrugged at by most people.
I think that is part of what makes Ivy sexy. Timex is more Ivy than Rolex because confidence is more sexy than shine. I love that part about all of this.
I’d get me a Weekender if I didn’t have to buy it online. I could wear it pretty much everywhere these days, except for the gym. I’d probably go with a red, white, and blue strap.
If you really want to avoid buying online, I would be shocked if your local jeweler would not be able to order a Weekender for you. As a Weekender owner, I highly recommend that you do!
In 1967 I graduated from high school. My parents picked up a Rolex Oyster for $50 (!!!) at the Henderson Hall PX. What a great graduation present it was. While I was in college the black strap wore out, and I got a handful of nylon straps. The watch requires winding, and I still wear it with those same straps. Except for that name on the face, it is simple enough it could pass for a Timex. I have two other watches, a thin gold Chopard with Roman numerals, given to me by my wife in the late 1970s and a GP pocket watch inherited from my great grandfather. Both require winding. So I flunk the Ivy test, but I love my watches, the first for most days, the second for dressy wear, and the third to drop in my golf bag or the pocket of a dinner jacket. I don’t want a watch that is smarter than I am.
I’ve gazed at Rolex’s at that same PX. As for passing the Ivy test, it’s graded on a curve, and in my opinion, a vintage Oyster Perpetual sets the standard, whereas the Timex is attainable style. I like the Date model. An Ivory or Champagne dial, as opposed to the more clinical white dial, is elegant.
School colors, olive drab, or regimental striped straps work better with a white dial. I’ve searched for, but not found one with Arabic numerals standing straight up north and south all the way around, like the Timex.
“Striped straps”. Say that three times fast.
Enjoy your personal collection!
Subarus are great cars. Reliable winter car in the cold and snowy Canadian Rockies. It’s a shame if one needs to sell a watch to pay for health care. All the best.
This may sounds trite, but if you look down at what is on your wrist and it makes you happy, then who cares about price or quality? I’m fortunate to have some more expensive watches, but as I type this I am wearing my Timex Iron Man 8 Lap and smiling. Why? Because it reminds me of the very first watch my dad gave me when I was a kid and also because it’s the watch that happened to be on my wrist when my son was born a few weeks ago (during a very memorable, unplanned home delivery I might add).
Also, I have a framed copy of the Rocky Marciano Timex Marlin ad you put on the homepage for this post. When I lived in DC, there was a gentleman who sold old print advertisements at a weekend outdoor market in Glover Park. As a proud son of Brockton, Massachusetts, when I saw it, I couldn’t pass it up.
I’d posit that “new” Rolex isn’t Ivy, but vintage is very much Ivy. Or maybe that Rolex itself (relentless pursuit of excellence in design, functionality, and performance – now owned by a foundation giving huge sums to charity) has always been Ivy and the reception of its goods in the market has changed, primarily due to the actions of Authorized Dealers, then later and most noxiously, YouTubers.
Either way, interesting topic.
“Takes a lickin’ and keeps on tickin'” I love my weekender with the burgundy/blue nylon strap and indigo backlight…but the ticking on that watch is so loud, I keep it in my closet at night. It’s definitely not a bedside table watch!
Hmmm. Okay. A few thoughts:
(1.) Nothing against Subarus (really), especially the durability/reliability factor. (I get it). But this isn’t the only the reason to buy/own/drive a car, eh? If it were, we’d all be perfectly, totally satisfied with Toyota Camrys and Subaru (fill in name of model)’s and Honda Civics. Not everybody is. Some (many?) want… well, more. Of whatever. Why?
Because there other factors — reasons. Styling, performance, handling, heritage, “the vibe” — on and on. No one should understand this more/better than guys who are into pricey, well-tailored, upmarket-ish clothes (including but not limited to Mercer OCBD’s).
(2.) Cheap accessories can (emphasis on “can”) dumb down/cheapen an ensemble that’s otherwise tastefully luxe (think a Chipp/Winston bespoke suit of Fox Bros. woollen flannel, Irish Poplin tie and Alden shell cordovan tassel mocs). In fact, a fairly decent case can be made that the pairing of a Timex with that combo is… ironic, quirky (in a not-totally- awesome way), neglectful, or absurd.
(3.) Are the actual roots of Ivy populist Ivy-For-Everybody-Goddammit 50’s-and-60s Heyday? Hmmm. Let’s go back– further: New Haven custom shops and, oh yeah, even further back, to old Brooks. Which is to suggest: the clothing was. not. cheap. The quality was first-rate and the vibe was Anglo-American opulence. (We’ve all seen the antique Brooks brochures– damn). I’ve no doubt the masses can’t distinguish a pair of Target brand chinos from Hertling English Drill trou. But some can (and do), and aren’t they offering a salute to the admittedly (and tastefully) decadent patina of yesteryear Brooksyness?
(4.) A Rolex isn’t a Rolex isn’t a Rolex isn’t a … well, you get the idea. Plenty of differences between models and eras. Consider an old, well-worn 1016 (Explorer), scratched and scarred. Classic and unpretentious and just so GREAT LOOKING, and 100% appropriate with that ancient ELJO’s (Grieco Bros./Southwick, of course) suit your grandfather bought the year you were born. Wouldn’t the practical-and-economical Timex, erring toward sensible-yet-humdrum, be out of place?
I see what you’re saying about the pairing of the humble Timex with a much more expensive wardrobe looking incongruous. Speaking for myself, I care so little about watches in general (nothing against watches or watch aficionados) that it doesn’t register to me as off-balance.
This might relate to what John wrote in the article, “…give me $500 in Target and $5,000 in Brooks and I can build you two wardrobes that the difference of would be shrugged at by most people.” …I’ve acquired plenty of expensive clothes/shoes/ties over the years, and far more total steals on eBay and Etsy (and even Brooks when a favorable sale is on). If I can score an expensive (at one time in the past) “deadstock” suit or sport coat or cashmere sweater from a secondhand dealer for a song, then pairing them with the watch I paid $35 retail for seems quite appropriate to me.
I favor the all-American canon, of which I feel Trad is a sub-set. When it comes time for graduation, funeral, weddins, governors ball, travel and evening out, I can slip on the shells, crease the khakis, button up the button downs, knot the knits and tweed up with the best of the blue bloods. But out here under the western sky, it’s often white Ts, denim, caboy boots, and a trusty Open Road.
Uniforms?…absotively!
The fun lies in the accessories. Like cars. And watches. I’ll keep running my AWD diesel Sportwagon until
I or it falls apart and keep wearing my 1016 till it or my arm falls off.
Accessories to me are like the frosting on the canon cake.
Yum.
I see a Rolex or Cartier under an OCBD cuff more often than a Timex. Maybe that’s a Texas thing (admittedly among the many “things” we have down here), but I don’t think so. I’ve been around a bit, all the way to Louisiana and other foreign countries.
It’s a perceived value question, I think. The Beemer would leave your Subaru in the dust, and a lot of buyers would think the increased performance is worth the extra cost. However, you value your daughter a helluva lot more than a damn car and don’t want her driving something that could be dangerously fast. That Subaru is perfect for her.
On most days, I wear a Rolex Datejust given to me for Christmas by my wife in 1986. On other days, for playing golf or working in the yard, I wear a Timex Indiglo I purchased for a Boy Scout High Adventure trip with my son on the boundary waters between Minnesota and Canada about 18 years ago. I plan to pass the Rolex on to my son at some point. The Timex will probably end up in a landfill. I wear the Rolex because the woman I loved gave it to me. When my son inherits it, I hope it will remind him of his mother. I wear the Times because it’s sturdy, practical, and inexpensive. I’ve never thought of watches as style.
Interesting how the discussion of cars merged (rather organically) with deliberation upon watches.
Family members will almost certainly receive my watches — heirlooms. At least a couple have already expressed an interest — in wearing them, as well as maintenance for the sake of (increasing) value with the passing of time. I’m pleased to say that the value of at least three of them have far, far, FAAARRR exceeded inflation. As investments go, far superior that many stocks and lots of properties I’ve encountered.
I’m baffled by any comparison of a durable-and-economical (“sensible), probably Japanese made wagon and/or wagon with other cars made (designed) for reasons having to do with other priorities. The BMW M8 and 2019 Porsche 911 G2 RS come to mind immediately, but certainly there are others. The combination of horsepower and torque render the more pragmatic, economical, and admittedly reliable cars… well, kinda-sorta gutless.
*and/or sedan
My grandfather was a son of the depression. When he reached maturity he got a good union job building brides and rail lines for the Missouri-Pacific Railroad. He was the hardest working and most practical man I ever knew, a man who always had a garden full of fresh vegetables and took it as a personal failure if we had to call someone to repair something around the house. When I finished college and got my first ‘real’ job, I splurged on a nice Seiko watch. When I got home, I went up to the front porch where he had settled after a long day on the railroad anxious to show him my new watch. Pointing out all the features, I noticed the scowl deepening on his face. He was quiet for a moment and then said “Son, any man that spends more money on a watch that cost more than a Timex is a damn fool with his money” Many times since then, I have found myself staring a display case full of Rolex or Tudors and think “You know, I’m doing ok. That last bonus was pretty good. I could swing one of those.” But, then I hear a whisper in my ear say “Son, any man…” So, I look down at my 15 year-old Timex and turn away with a smile on my face thinking about that gruff old mountain of a man who taught me so much about life.
… this all circles back to the broader discussion of (what constitutes) “Ivy values,” doesn’t it? I’m continually astounded by the abstract, nebulous “you know it when you see it” quality to so much in life — including and perhaps especially matters of style.
To complicate this matter, the Japanese interpretations of old classics (including Rolexes) are not only great looking; they’re reliable. And I still contend the old Toyota Land Cruisers were the most faithful interpretation of older Land Rovers — while prioritizing rock solid dependability.
Which leads us down another somewhat trodden path: how Japanese Traditionalists (TRADitionalists?) saved and redeemed Ivy. And atoned for mistakes the 70s-and-80s era Brooks (among other merchants) made. Certainly true of/about Onward-Kashiyama-owned J. Press, and consider the Japanese markets for Alden, Brooks’ former shirt manufacturer (in NJ), and British cloth.
So, apropos this watch/car discussion, maybe an old Lexus-and-Seiko 5 pairing is the matchless combo.
… this all circles back to the broader discussion of (what constitutes) “Ivy values,” doesn’t it? I’m continually astounded by the abstract, nebulous “you know it when you see it” quality to so much in life — including and perhaps especially matters of style.
To complicate this matter, the Japanese interpretations of old classics (including Rolexes) are not only great looking; they’re reliable. And I still contend the old Toyota Land Cruisers were the most faithful interpretation of older Land Rovers — while prioritizing rock solid dependability.
Which leads us down another somewhat trodden path: how Japanese Traditionalists (TRADitionalists?) saved and redeemed Ivy. And atoned for mistakes the 70s-and-80s era Brooks (among other merchants) made. Certainly true of/about Onward-Kashiyama-owned J. Press, and consider the Japanese markets for Alden, Brooks’ former shirt manufacturer (in NJ), and British cloth.
So, apropos this watch/car discussion, maybe an old Lexus-and-Seiko 5 pairing is the matchless combo.
I have a Shinola (blue face/brown strap) for everyday, a Longines (thin, classic, black strap) for dress……and they’re more than fine…..,
And, yes, we just bought the Volvo XC90 because it was very Ivy……. we love it.
SE
Older BMWs were Ivy and cool. Like VW bugs, MGs, Triumphs and most Benzs, they were auster almost homely. These autos weren’t particularly fast, actually less fast than a 1960s family station wagon, even original 911s. They handled like a go-cart, that made them fun.
I love 911s and older BMWs with the kidney grill, I’ve owned four BMWs. But the body works on new BMWs have Japanese influence bodys. The BMW M8 is probably fun to drive, but it’s styling is hideous. I would love to have a Porsche 911 G2 RS, but I wouldn’t have a garage to put it in. I’d have to sell my house to afford it.
I have enjoyed the automotive digression tremendously. My ancient Rolex reminds me of my first BMW, a 1970 2002, pretty cool, easy to keep running, and hard and expensive to keep running perfectly. The Chopard is more like the MB 420 SEL, understated and ran perfectly. The GP pocket watch is like a very old Rolls an early teacher drove, smooth and elegant. My dad was at sea. We lived in some garden apartments in Norfolk. My mother prevailed upon Mr. Wilkinson to give me lifts to school in that Rolls. That is at least as improbable as a Timex on the wrist of a well dressed executive.
ReTimex: In the 70s there were Timex commercials in which the watches
were subjected to all kinds of Stresses, like being attached to a golf club
which hit a ball, but the watch kept on ticking. During that time I accidnetly
washed a western shirt with the Timex in the pocket with a snap closure.
When I took the shirt out oif the machine and felt the watch I was crestfallen.
But to my amazement, it was still ticking with the correct time ! Truth in
Advertising.
Alas, not all advertising “can take a lickin'” and withstand a truth test like yours.
Didn’t Waltham, Elgin, Hamilton and Bulova make versions of the classic, basic, durable A-11 (military specs)? Seiko’s interpretation is faithful to the original —
https://www.seikowatches.com/us-en/products/5sports/srpg35
Best of both worlds I drive a Subaru Forester and wear a Timex Expedition.
Folks, it’s the total package! Ivy or southern collegiate style – whatever you call it – is NOT just a three-button natural shoulder suit with a center-vent and no darts (or a navy blazer of the same style with brass buttons). It is NOT an OCBD with khakis or gray flannels and traditional shoes. It is certainly all those things but must be accompanied by appropriate complementary accessories. You cannot have one without the other. It’s the total package! That’s just my opinion. It might not be yours.
The appropriate watch is a Cartier Tank or a Patek Phillipe Calatrava, but most of us would opt for a tastefully executed knockoff. And the knockoffs do not have to be expensive! They just have to have a gold or silver color case, a white enamel face, black Roman numerals and a dark brown or black leather strap. Striped grosgrain nylon bands in traditional colors are acceptable options, but only with casual wear, and only if the colors don’t clash with the rest of your clothing. A gentleman’s umbrella can be any color you like – as long as it’s BLACK. That holds true for any occasion – from weddings to funerals to walking a pretty girl across campus on a rainy day. The only exceptions are outdoor sporting events. Socks are always solid colors – black, brown, navy, or charcoal – except when wearing Scottish highland dress, sporting attire, or athletic gear. Glasses should have round tortoise-shell frames – period. Gloves can be black, brown or tan, but must complement your outerwear. Scarves can be soft lambswool or preferably cashmere in traditional colors – navy, burgundy, gray or earth tones. Viable alternatives include plaids, school colors, or Scottish tartan – as long as they complement your outerwear. Your belt should complement your shoes – brown or tan with brown, black with black. Surcingle belts with brass buckles can be in traditional stripes, but only with casual clothing – never with a suit. As I said, these are my opinions. They might not be yours.
With respect to automobiles. I used to drive Volvos, but in retirement I have opted for a Ford Escape small SUV so my wife and I can go to Rome, Paris, London, or the Scottish Highlands every other year or so.
By the way, I am wearing my Kevlar vest, so go ahead and give an old curmudgeon your best shot! And like all vests should, mine covers my belt buckle.
I’ve gotta know more about your Kevlar comment, particularly because I thought I was the only one around here who had occasion to wear it. Haha
There are some good affordable alternatives out there for the Tank and Calatrava. For the Tank, look no further than Seiko (Alan Flusser approved!). And for the Calatrava, I highly recommend a brand called Baltic. Based in France, highly regarded in the enthusiast community, and borrows a lot of Patek design language without being a straight up ripoff. I’m wearing an MR01 salmon dial on a brown alligator strap right now.
Agent Ivy: Mine is a Tissot Classic (Patek Philippe look-alike). I have had it for a while and don’t remember what it cost, but it was not expensive. And the Kevlar vest is a Southwick charcoal gray herringbone.
Ah, I took your joke too literally. Personally, my vest is made by Point Blank, but your Southwick sounds a lot more appealing. Haha.