We are ready. But we need input on the criteria. We have the brands, most of the samples, etc.
There is a lot going on here. But (1) you would be amazed how few renderings of white ocbd’s there are that you haven’t seen 100 times already, (2) we are fishing with a big net but (3) whatever that is dangling off the pocket? Don’t worry about it. And the gill on the back of the shirt? We are not under water. Otherwise, salud.
Here’s the list so far.
Collar roll
Tucked v Untucked (I know but it is a reality we must accept, and that producers have started to cater to – the emails I get asking why shirt tails are shorter now…)
Collar length
Fabric
Care
Buttons
Button hole
Legacy (this is Ivy, your story matters)
Fit
Accents and Accoutrements (locker loop, pocket, etc.)
Anything unique to the shirt (that’s a hard one but we are looking
Value
Availability (never used to be an issue but now – )
Collar spread for a tie
Is there anything we are missing? First one is Thursday. THANKS – JB
Dear Mr JB, maybe “fabrication location” would be worth affing as a criteria?
I have seen several discussions in the forum on the topic of “made in USA” / “made in Europe” / imported from elsewhere and the potential influence on the value for money of the particular garment.
I struggle with this. Tell me what you think. On the one hand, I am so Joe America, but I am also Joe Small Business. Manufacturing in America would be a non-starter for most start-ups. And this discussion rapidly turns into politics, which for now we are devoutly against discussing here. BUT it is also a criteria for so many.
My compromise was to list the country of origin in the specs, in accordance with labeling law. And let people do their thing. But I don’t know. What do you think? – JB
A. By 14. Collar spread for a tie, do we mean tie space, or the shape of the spread?
B. Box pleats or side pleats…
I meant what a tie looks like with the collar – shape of the spread I think. Is that right do you think? Pleats – great idea, and added. Thank you – JB
Perhaps totally semantic, but I view value as the sum of all the criteria listed above, and not a single line item. Would also consider Fit in both fit on the reviewer as well as number of different fit options available.
With regard to fit, the shirt will be worn by someone who typically wears that size – so trim will be worn by someone who typically wears a trim. Value, I think I get where you are going. Most times a shirt is worth what you pay for it, but in the instance where a $69 ocbd performs the same as a $169 ocbd we want to make note of that. Does that make sense? – JB
An emphatic agreement with Hardbopper on box vs. side pleats and with Mitchell on second button position. (A Seinfeld episode discussed the latter, underscoring its importance.)
I don’t go outside with an untucked shirt because I’m a crotchety fuddy-duddy (unless it’s a Hawaiian or polo-type shirt) but there are images in Take Ivy of untucked OCBDs with proper shirt tails. I think it’s a good slouchy look when done right. My unsolicited opinion, doubtless not unique among I-S readers, is that “Untuck-it” shirt tails always look out of proportion to me, like the past decade’s trend of chopped sport coats and suit jackets. It gives the impression of wearing something sized too small.
Totally agree about Untuck-it, totally. Where is the rest of the shirt? I wear untucked oxfords at some point every day, and the shorter ones are like my high school t shirt. – JB
Yes! Thanks! The trouble with these is that you have to see them with ties in them, and with various knots too. Thank god we have Ivy-Style (kidding) (but I am doing that) (but still kidding) – JB
The “CUT” or fit is paramount to me (full cut only- no iffy Madison cut for me),
Collar length & tie box,
Pocket style & size of pocket in relation to the shirt,
Manufacturing location (USA), process (no fusing), all cotton material, & guaranteed to wrinkle!
I only mention collar spread because I’ve seen some wierd photos lately. I’m assuming you will not waste your time with anything outside the realm of commonly accepted orthodoxy.
Totally correct, and also totally warranted. 🙂 – JB
@JB, understood on the value component. Re: Fit, was referring to a model available in three different cuts (say, trim, classic, tent) as a benefit to an OCBD available only in one cut. Sounds like you’ve figured that out, as the BB OCBD would be reviewed in Madison, Milano, Regent, Madison)?
Hi Rake! I wish – we reached out to some companies, others reached out to us, but we are only reviewing what we get sent. Now, if a company wants to send us each iteration of their shirt, we will absolutely review each. We leave that up to the company. But I suspect that if in the comments of a particular shirt you ask, “What about the slim?” someone will answer you. OR, if there is something specific you want chased down let me know and we will go after it for you. – JB
Dear JB, many thanks for your response, and I have already given up to get annoyed by typos having had to change from a laptop keyboard to a tablet some weeks ago…
I understand your point of view regarding the country of fabrication.
Whilst in my home country Germany extremely high production cost have not hindered some companies to move garment fabrication back home, it is still an exception. We can only be proud of our 1%ers necktie producers in the city of Krefeld (used to be 200 companies, nowadays two left that manufacture locally) – even the Britons and the Italians get many ties from there. Portugal does not only have a respected quality shoe industry, it is also a strong textile market place. Amongst others, also the large ships such as Gant, Hilfiger, Lauren, have manufacturing sources there.
Admittedly, this is a lengthy topic. What I like about Ivy Style is the non-partisan and unpolitical stance which keeps discussions friendly. As a summary, I am convinced to limit mentioning the country of origin in the specs list for the OCBD review.
Man, that is sad about the 200 companies though. Ok, so we will leave it at the specs the company gives? – JB
@Mitchell that’s interesting, one of the reasons I think people love Mercer & Sons and old BB Makers is that the distance from the collar button to the second button down was low enough that you could wear the shirt open and enough neck would show that it wouldn’t be pulling open with only the collar button undone, but still barely high enough to conceal chest hair. The point of the Seinfeld discussion (which is in both the pilot and the series finale) was that the second button was too high up, “in No Man’s Land!”
6 buttons properly (healthily) spaced mean the shirt can look relaxed when worn without a tie without the need to undo more than the collar button. I don’t believe this is an unusual opinion either, Drake’s oxfords have an 8 button front, but much more space between the collar and the second button down than any of the others.
These go under fabric, but could be separately mentioned:
Non Iron Fabric finish – has the fabric been treated to withstand creasing; if so, by what method(chemically, specifying the chemicals used; thermally; other process).
Thread count, ply count.
Cotton type – Supima or Egyptian, etc. Organic versus non-organic.
With regard to buttons, it’s vital to know what they are made of – plastic, shell or mother of pearl. Plastic buttons are a deal breaker for me so I generally buy Budd (London) or Drake’s OCBDs.
Love the comments about Untuckit! So tired of men wearing clothes that look like their little brother’s 8th grade confirmation outfit. I’m headed down this path (age 62), but love the idea of American craftsmanship made with American Supima cotton and pearl buttons. I recall labels that said Threadtex TTX – that was always quality. One feature I like is the bottom button hole cut horizontally to help keep the shirt tucked in. I too had a friend of the female persuasion who loved to steal an old dress shirt and tie or belt and wear it as a dress. Sensational! I always wished it was Lauren Hutton.
Sizing, whether exact or alpha. Thickness of cloth. And untucked should be IGNORED on this site. Why discuss things which are NOT Ivy in any way? Untuck a real OCBD when wearing shorts but otherwise why waste our eyeballs on something so hideous? Many readers here (moreso the facebook site) become weary of non Ivy things which pop up. Peopel don’t go to the Coke site to read about Pepsi or ice-tea.
Well, the untucked oxford is featured pretty prominently in Take Ivy, upon which we rely heavily. Like we say, and educated reader is our best customer 🙂 – JB
So, I’m just about to try my own OCBD test here in London – after all, even within the creme de là creme, everyone has his own preferences! Obviously, It’ll include J Press and Mercer & Sons. But I’ve just noticed that Brooks Brothers is now offering a USA-made ‘reimagining’ of its traditional OCBD. Do you think it would be worth including one? And finally, how about The Andover Shop’s version?
All thoughts would be welcome!
15. Likelihood that a new friend decides to wear it the next morning.
Genius. Sold. – JB
Dear Mr JB, maybe “fabrication location” would be worth affing as a criteria?
I have seen several discussions in the forum on the topic of “made in USA” / “made in Europe” / imported from elsewhere and the potential influence on the value for money of the particular garment.
I struggle with this. Tell me what you think. On the one hand, I am so Joe America, but I am also Joe Small Business. Manufacturing in America would be a non-starter for most start-ups. And this discussion rapidly turns into politics, which for now we are devoutly against discussing here. BUT it is also a criteria for so many.
My compromise was to list the country of origin in the specs, in accordance with labeling law. And let people do their thing. But I don’t know. What do you think? – JB
– Should have said “adding”; my apologies for the typo..
Want me to fix it? Because god knows I fix typos here 🙂 – JB
One critical criterion that I see has been omitted is the distance between the first and second button.
On my Billy Reid OCBD (made in Portugal,) there is a smaller space between the first and second button than on the rest of the placket.
I know this seems trivial but this allows the shirt to be worn open-collared (sans cravat) without revealing any unsightly chest hair.
Excellent addition thank you! – JB
A. By 14. Collar spread for a tie, do we mean tie space, or the shape of the spread?
B. Box pleats or side pleats…
I meant what a tie looks like with the collar – shape of the spread I think. Is that right do you think? Pleats – great idea, and added. Thank you – JB
Perhaps totally semantic, but I view value as the sum of all the criteria listed above, and not a single line item. Would also consider Fit in both fit on the reviewer as well as number of different fit options available.
With regard to fit, the shirt will be worn by someone who typically wears that size – so trim will be worn by someone who typically wears a trim. Value, I think I get where you are going. Most times a shirt is worth what you pay for it, but in the instance where a $69 ocbd performs the same as a $169 ocbd we want to make note of that. Does that make sense? – JB
12. Value/Average Price.
Price can vary for BB, and Polo more so than other shirts.
Good point. I will make sure we mention that. I was just planning on mentioning the price for the specific shirt that we are reviewing. Good? – JB
An emphatic agreement with Hardbopper on box vs. side pleats and with Mitchell on second button position. (A Seinfeld episode discussed the latter, underscoring its importance.)
I don’t go outside with an untucked shirt because I’m a crotchety fuddy-duddy (unless it’s a Hawaiian or polo-type shirt) but there are images in Take Ivy of untucked OCBDs with proper shirt tails. I think it’s a good slouchy look when done right. My unsolicited opinion, doubtless not unique among I-S readers, is that “Untuck-it” shirt tails always look out of proportion to me, like the past decade’s trend of chopped sport coats and suit jackets. It gives the impression of wearing something sized too small.
Totally agree about Untuck-it, totally. Where is the rest of the shirt? I wear untucked oxfords at some point every day, and the shorter ones are like my high school t shirt. – JB
This pic shows tie space and collar spread. https://www.dreamstime.com/vector-diagram-men-s-shirt-collar-explication-parts-leaf-band-spread-point-length-infographics-ultimate-guide-image184159853
Yes! Thanks! The trouble with these is that you have to see them with ties in them, and with various knots too. Thank god we have Ivy-Style (kidding) (but I am doing that) (but still kidding) – JB
The “CUT” or fit is paramount to me (full cut only- no iffy Madison cut for me),
Collar length & tie box,
Pocket style & size of pocket in relation to the shirt,
Manufacturing location (USA), process (no fusing), all cotton material, & guaranteed to wrinkle!
*’spellcheck
No iffy Madison cut for me.
JB, please repair previous for me.
Did I get that right? – JB
To me, Untuck-it shirts are blouses for betas.
Will
Yes. Blouses. Yes. – JB
The shape of the collar is very important as well, Italians/ Europeans often get it wrong and create a button downed spread collar shirts.
Hells yes, very true. I will try to Collar Length, but I think you are right, we should change it to collar shape. Yes? – JB
I only mention collar spread because I’ve seen some wierd photos lately. I’m assuming you will not waste your time with anything outside the realm of commonly accepted orthodoxy.
Totally correct, and also totally warranted. 🙂 – JB
@JB, understood on the value component. Re: Fit, was referring to a model available in three different cuts (say, trim, classic, tent) as a benefit to an OCBD available only in one cut. Sounds like you’ve figured that out, as the BB OCBD would be reviewed in Madison, Milano, Regent, Madison)?
Hi Rake! I wish – we reached out to some companies, others reached out to us, but we are only reviewing what we get sent. Now, if a company wants to send us each iteration of their shirt, we will absolutely review each. We leave that up to the company. But I suspect that if in the comments of a particular shirt you ask, “What about the slim?” someone will answer you. OR, if there is something specific you want chased down let me know and we will go after it for you. – JB
Can yiu see a tie dye through it. 🤣
Can that be criteria 17(a)? 🙂 – JB
Dear JB, many thanks for your response, and I have already given up to get annoyed by typos having had to change from a laptop keyboard to a tablet some weeks ago…
I understand your point of view regarding the country of fabrication.
Whilst in my home country Germany extremely high production cost have not hindered some companies to move garment fabrication back home, it is still an exception. We can only be proud of our 1%ers necktie producers in the city of Krefeld (used to be 200 companies, nowadays two left that manufacture locally) – even the Britons and the Italians get many ties from there. Portugal does not only have a respected quality shoe industry, it is also a strong textile market place. Amongst others, also the large ships such as Gant, Hilfiger, Lauren, have manufacturing sources there.
Admittedly, this is a lengthy topic. What I like about Ivy Style is the non-partisan and unpolitical stance which keeps discussions friendly. As a summary, I am convinced to limit mentioning the country of origin in the specs list for the OCBD review.
Man, that is sad about the 200 companies though. Ok, so we will leave it at the specs the company gives? – JB
@Mitchell that’s interesting, one of the reasons I think people love Mercer & Sons and old BB Makers is that the distance from the collar button to the second button down was low enough that you could wear the shirt open and enough neck would show that it wouldn’t be pulling open with only the collar button undone, but still barely high enough to conceal chest hair. The point of the Seinfeld discussion (which is in both the pilot and the series finale) was that the second button was too high up, “in No Man’s Land!”
6 buttons properly (healthily) spaced mean the shirt can look relaxed when worn without a tie without the need to undo more than the collar button. I don’t believe this is an unusual opinion either, Drake’s oxfords have an 8 button front, but much more space between the collar and the second button down than any of the others.
Please…forgive the nerdrant…
To me, Untuck-it shirts are blouses for betas.
Will
Such a great line. I will be sure to use and give you attribution.
These go under fabric, but could be separately mentioned:
Non Iron Fabric finish – has the fabric been treated to withstand creasing; if so, by what method(chemically, specifying the chemicals used; thermally; other process).
Thread count, ply count.
Cotton type – Supima or Egyptian, etc. Organic versus non-organic.
Fabric could be split into weight, softness, and durability.
With regard to buttons, it’s vital to know what they are made of – plastic, shell or mother of pearl. Plastic buttons are a deal breaker for me so I generally buy Budd (London) or Drake’s OCBDs.
Love the comments about Untuckit! So tired of men wearing clothes that look like their little brother’s 8th grade confirmation outfit. I’m headed down this path (age 62), but love the idea of American craftsmanship made with American Supima cotton and pearl buttons. I recall labels that said Threadtex TTX – that was always quality. One feature I like is the bottom button hole cut horizontally to help keep the shirt tucked in. I too had a friend of the female persuasion who loved to steal an old dress shirt and tie or belt and wear it as a dress. Sensational! I always wished it was Lauren Hutton.
Are the collar, cuffs and placket fused or unfused?
Which shirt brand is this?
The collar and cut look great.
Which shirt brand is this?
The collar and cut look great.
Forgot the link.
Mea culpa.
Here it is:
https://www.ivy-style.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/IMG_9698-1294×2048.jpeg
I am going to shock you with this next week 🙂 -JB
Sizing, whether exact or alpha. Thickness of cloth. And untucked should be IGNORED on this site. Why discuss things which are NOT Ivy in any way? Untuck a real OCBD when wearing shorts but otherwise why waste our eyeballs on something so hideous? Many readers here (moreso the facebook site) become weary of non Ivy things which pop up. Peopel don’t go to the Coke site to read about Pepsi or ice-tea.
Well, the untucked oxford is featured pretty prominently in Take Ivy, upon which we rely heavily. Like we say, and educated reader is our best customer 🙂 – JB
So, I’m just about to try my own OCBD test here in London – after all, even within the creme de là creme, everyone has his own preferences! Obviously, It’ll include J Press and Mercer & Sons. But I’ve just noticed that Brooks Brothers is now offering a USA-made ‘reimagining’ of its traditional OCBD. Do you think it would be worth including one? And finally, how about The Andover Shop’s version?
All thoughts would be welcome!