Frequent comment-leaver SE dug up these photos in light of the recent LL Bean post. They show that traditional New England style is — or at least was — youthful rather than stodgy, and that it exports well all around the country.
* * *
It’s that time of year. Bean boots, corduroys, and Norwegian Sweater time. In a world where fewer and fewer people favor rustic New England preppy style as defined by a smattering of undergrads (and the retailers who catered to them) throughout the latter part of the 20th century, it’s positively anachronistic.
And since anachronistic behavior is the polite first cousin of revolt, I am all for it. In this day and age, anything mild-mannered, soft-spoken or preppy is a counterpoint to the prevailing zeitgeist.
Nothing “stodgy” about these images from the 1983 Sewanee yearbook. — SE
And speaking of Sewanee, here’s a photo from the Class of 1967’s 50th reunion at Homecoming/Reunions weekend last weekend. If 1967 is the turning point year, then take a look at how they still show up 50 years later. [Sewanee wasn’t co-ed in 1967]
I personally think the main problem with Bean recently has been their quality, which has taken a noticeable dive, though their customer service remains excellent.
“Diversity” pandering will only make things worse. For those claiming that millennials prefer companies like that – that’s nonsense- most successful brands (and fashion magazines) are constantly accused by rent seekers of not being diverse enough – diversity in ads was defacto mandated by the obama administration via EOE when they ludicrously claimed that having too many white models would lead to employment discrimination.
Inevitably having ‘diverse’ ads leads to implied race-mixing, which a lot of people of all ethnicity don’t like
now of course, even dressing ‘wall street’ =white=evil – and nothing will satiate that least of all pandering to it – just look at the confederate statue debacle- which is now the columbus and TR statue debacle and soon to be all white men debacle…
Sure Bean can turn into a ‘globalist’ company – JPress can turn into a hip hop retailer… but what’s the point.
Maybe Bean and go back to its roots, emphasize quality and be ok without having to have hyper-growth. In fact, many back-to-tradition younger folk might pick up on that.
Troll, posting cheap shots under the name of people presumably more well known than you (Dave Rubin, now Paul Joseph Watson) very bad for your mental health! Your psyche is taking note and you will have bad dreams tonight of cowardice.
Speak your logos, bucko!
I’ve been exploring a concept for a side career as a life coach, and was going to reach out to any miserable wretches in our FB group to see if there are any volunteers to try the “Chens method.”
You look like a good place to start. Email me if you’d like to stop being a pathetic weasel and start being a person who can be respected — chiefly by yourself.
I graduated from my CT boarding school not three years ago, and these photos resonate with me. We would all wear our oxfords crammed into slim-cut chinos or forest green cords. For school, we wore Sperry (and the New York kids would wear Gucci bit loafers or Tod’s drivers), but after class it was Nikes, Tritons, Rainbows, or Bean boots.
Yikes, I like going to Ivy Style for great inspiration about clothing, not to get badgered with the usual political nonsense I see daily elsewhere.
Frankly Christian, it’s slightly disappointing that a man who is as thoughtful and educated as yourself decides to engage the silly troll who has posted 2 quips from alt-right figures with that much vigor and just ignore the commenter who complained about race-mixing as if that is as normal of an opinion as preferring to wear collar pins!
I usually post as “Mountain Cat Prep”, but since that would just make me a “pathetic weasel”, I’ll use most of my real name. I’ve been visiting Ivy Style regularly since 2013, and just like the great fashion trends of the 50’s and 60’s, I’m pining to go back to that simpler time in your website.
Has anyone else seen Abercrombie’s new ad campaign commercial? They’re come a long way since outfitting Hemingway but the products they now carry are more pared down and somewhat nice, despite the obvious lack of good quality.
@Morgan M.: today is apparently the day we both – accidentally or otherwise – decided to step out and be ourselves. I, too, relish heated debates about patch pockets and hook vents as an escape from real life. My sense is that it is the younger among us that feel otherwise.
That Steal Your Face better be the model’s personal shirt, because otherwise Jerry’s estate hasn’t licensed it to a mall brand selling skinny jeans and “hoodies”, and that’s just about more than I can take.
I am delighted you’ve decided to join me in the war against Cultural Marxism and become an auditor in my patented method of Petersonetics. Now go forth and destroy those SP’s. Wait, I mean, post-modernist snowflakes.
@ I Commenter: of course everything is about identity; however much we argue about collar lengths or cuffs on flannels, for instance, we’re all on Ivy Style because we presumably agree that this stuff ain’t “just clothes”. It carries some personal meaning to us – it represents something we long for, or grate against, or are nostalgic about, or whatever else. That’s why it’s fun.
The Sewanee photos are great. I was at W&L around that time and I think most of the pictures could have been swapped into my class yearbook and no one would have noticed the difference. On another note, I would also be happy if the troll losers were evicted. There may be a place for a bit of good natured politics, but this stuff is simply embarrassing.
Great pics. Makes me nostalgic for those late 70’s/early 80’s preppy days. Was just looking though my old High School year books from that period and the clothes were great – LL Bean flannel shirts, OCBDs, Levis, cords, shetlands, bluchers, Bean boots, ribbon belts, etc. It’s a shame that most kids don’t dress that well anymore.
If you guys can’t handle disagreements with other guys WHO LOOK EXACTLY LIKE YOU, then no wonder our nation is so polarized.
Ivy-Style.com has contemporary relevance — unlike escapist preppy sites — and I think it’s therapeutic for righties and lefties to encounter each other and hash things out. Perhaps they can then go forth into the world with greater skills of understanding and compromise. But probably not.
As I’ve noted before, I’ve been at this a long time: tens of thousands of posts, comments, and Facebook threads. The kind of guy who has a “no politics!” freakout is always left of center; I’ve never seen a conservative demand silence when a political or social issue comes up. Their fault is being too quick on the draw and argumentative, as opposed to hyperventilating when they encounter the opposition. Safe spaces on campus were created by this type of utopian leftist who wants protection from the real world of both jerks and articulate people with different ideas.
As for Dave Rubin, he’s a gay Jewish liberal who happens to be about the most likable and reasonable guy out there, and if someone thinks that makes him an “alt-right” bad guy such person is nuts and can’t be reasoned with.
Speaking of which, we’ve had a troll lately who posts under the name of figures such as Rubin, Peterson and Watson and makes snide remarks mocking the right. Above I tried to help this fellow, but, like stray cats, it’s a very low percentage success rate. He is acting out the shadow figure of the trickster archetype, which is extremely unhealthy. He mocks his peers as well as famous people higher up the competence hierarchy, but the trickster, as a form of boy psychology, is not able to develop into a mature man and assume responsbility. He does not wish to usurp the king and take his throne, he is only capable of jokes and mockery. As a long-term life strategy this is simply devastating; Tradsville’s most notorious troll, “Russell Street” or “Jimmy Frost-Mellor” seems by all accounts to be a certifiable sociopath. There’s a reason for the cliché of the troll/trickster as a loser living in his parents’ basement. He is both literally and figuratively underground, not in the light where a meaningful life is led.
I knew the this was Sewanee when I saw the second pic. Was a dead give away. Also, I’m a huge Dead head and I don’t know how I feel about A&F selling steal your face t-shirts. Target already does this so it’s not a huge shock, but somewhat confusing since the kids at my university mostly do not know any Dead music and certainly they most do not like it.
“Finally, as for race-mixing, I’m all for it!”
But a lot of people aren’t – ever ask an East Asian guy what he thinks about all the east asian women dating white guys? , like wanting, say Spain to to Spanish- what was a common sense instinctual feeling has now been demonized. I can accept that someone people want to race mix- but race mixers can’t seem to accept that other people object to this most personal of choices.
@pjdoughertyiii
As many have pointed out here – the ‘ivy’ or ‘trad’ look was never polarized. Yes you might find more conservatives dressed in brooks brothers and more liberals dressed like hippies, but now for example, I believe some wall street firms were criticized for, well, dressing like wall street firms traditionally did.
CC, for what it’s worth I come here not just for the ivy style, but for the conversation that includes politics and social issues. I find it enlightening, especially when I do not agree with all the comments.
I commenter, it doesn’t matter whether you are asking a hypothetical “East Asian guy” or a blackshirt, opposition to race-mixing is an ugly and indefensible position. The idea that your argument is respectable because other people may exist who agree with it is terribly poor reasoning and can be applied to any argument.
“opposition to race-mixing is an ugly and indefensible position. ”
well I think you kind of made my point. You simply name call. What about, for example, the Parsi in India whose numbers are less than 200,000, is it ‘indefensible’ for them to want maintain their ethnic heritage?
What about someone who’s ethnically Askanazi jewish and wants to maintain that heritage?
“The idea that your argument is respectable because other people may exist who agree with it is terribly poor reasoning”
that is not what I said at all. Maintaining blood lines is as old as human history – traditionally the only people who opposed it were people trying to wipe out other peoples. .. to demonize maintaining bloodlines is to demonize human nature.
Yes other (bad) things like rape, murder, are as old as human history but those are committing acts of violence against another person, whereas your asserting that of maintaining ethnic heritage is indefensible.
Well, actually he’s right. Most of the world’s races and cultures marry their own — including Baby Boomer white liberals, for example. Because of the way identity politics in the USA in 2017 works, with the oppressor/oppressed Marxist dynamic, it’s only an indefensible position for whites to believe that intermarriage is taboo. Nobody thinks it’s a national issue if most Jews frown upon their peers marrying the goyim, or if the Egyptian population of my New York City neighborhood isn’t marrying blacks, Asians and Hispanics at an acceptable rate.
Years ago a friend told me a story about a girl he knew who was Chinese American. Her parents’ attitude towards her future husband went something like this:
Please marry a Chinese guy.
If you marry a white guy, we will be very disappointed.
A choice of one’s romantic partner is obviously a very personal one, and if someone makes shared cultural background a priority there is nothing wrong with that. But that’s quite different from viewing the romantic choices of others in a dim light based on whatever cultural differences they might have. Perhaps I’m mistaken but from the tone of your comments you seem to take offense to the general idea interracial romance, down to your choice of using “race mixers” as an epithet.
Again, your historic arguments are so broad as to be meaningless. Quite a great deal of genocide happened in the last century based on the idea of “maintaining blood lines.”
Those Egyptians, Jews and the Chinese American parents in your examples may be well-meaning and motivated by some notions besides dislike of the “other”, but they will lose over the long run completely regardless of whether their views are politically correct or not. (White baby boomers in your example, at least the women, are finished passing along their genes since the youngest are over 50…they aren’t going to engage in any more mixing). Look at Hawaii – distinct ethnicities moved there in the relatively recent past and huge portions of the population are now “mixed.” The anti-race mixers (I realize you aren’t one) are fighting against sex…I’ll give good odds on sex to win out.
By the way, the most extreme example of sex winning out that I know of is that Amon Goth, the Nazi camp commander depicted in Schindler’s list, has a granddaughter who is half Nigerian. Quite simply, people’s views on “race mixing” ain’t going to matter.
Exactly, it’s the future of America and of the West (not other parts of the world) — except the part of the future where all the different groups fight amongs themselves instead of having sex.
@JMG
What happened here? It looks to me like a group of college-educated men in buttondowns, striped ties and tweed jackets started having a discussion about the world.
“The anti-race mixers (I realize you aren’t one) are fighting against sex…I’ll give good odds on sex to win out.”
Nope depends on the culture – Spanish colonizers interbred with indians and are mixed race, English frowned upon it and with the exception of rare cases, or rape/.kidnapping (Many Indian tribes highly valued and thus kidnapped white women) race mixing was unknown. My family has been in america 300+ years, including the deep south and west, just did a 23 and me – 100% European.
“By the way, the most extreme example of sex winning out that I know of is that Amon Goth, the Nazi camp commander depicted in Schindler’s list, has a granddaughter who is half Nigerian”
Hmm you think 50+ years of German bashing has anything to do with it? You’re ‘racist’ if you want to marry another german.
“If you marry a Korean, we will kill ourselves.”
I miss the days when we could laugh about those jokes in public.
@Eric Twardzik
most genocide happened and continues to happen because of ethnic competition not maintaining bloodlines. Deir Yassin didn’t happen because Zionists thought Jewish women were going to marry Palestinian goy. In fact, in most (but not all) cases, religious conflict usually has an ethnic undertone. Israel Palestine, Northern Ireland are as much ethnic conflicts as religious ones.
” and if someone makes shared cultural background a priority there is nothing wrong with that.”
and what if they want to make ethnic background a priority?
A bunch of young men in sportcoats and ties, and yet somehow I instantly knew that first photo was taken when I was in school, that is to say when Ronald Reagan was in the White House, and not when Jack Kennedy was. Is it maybe their haircuts or the way they carry themselves?
Boys at my prep school typically wore an OCBD, a crew neck Shetland Sweater, Levi’s button-front straight-leg 501 jeans or khakis, and on their feet either Weejuns, Topsiders, or Adidas or Nike or New Balance athletic shoes.
Hitler and his ilk wanted to maintain blood lines ie the aryan race and they wiped out 5 million people not counting the men and women killed in WW II. It is called the “Holocaust”.
Go sell your spurious that is false bastard logic on another street corner.
” and I think it’s therapeutic for righties and lefties to encounter each other and hash things out”
@Christian
I know it’s thankless task to try to be the host of such a place!
Joan Baez could sing the night they drove old dixie down, Tom Petty (dyed in the wool liberal democrat) could hang a confederate flag and the village voice could have Pat Buchanan on the cover and say “you may disagree with him, but he’s got some great ideas to help american workers”
“Hitler and his ilk wanted to maintain blood lines ie the aryan race and they wiped out 5 million people not counting the men and women killed in WW II. It is called the “Holocaust”.”
I guess Goodwins law does apply anymore so I’ll have to play on…
So, what about the 20 million wiped out by communists prior to Hitler, was that about maintaining bloodlines. ?
So, tell me, why did Deir Yassin happen then?
” Is it maybe their haircuts or the way they carry themselves?”
interesting comment, I sensed the same thing (i could tell it was not 60s but when my youth. Could it be the photographic quality as well? I do think there’s something to ‘the way they carry themselves’ but i can put my finger on it.
A man points out a historical fact in support of a logical argument and you call it as “50+ years of German bashing” Really, are adhomony attacks and the big lie all you have to offer?
@H. Korn
I implied that her motivation might be to “cleanse’ herself of her nazi grandfather. I based this on my travels to India and reading a very poignant book about post colonial English going to India to ‘cleanse’ themselves of their colonial past by doing things like this – oh by the way the book was written by an Indian, it’s called Karma Cola, I suggest you give it a read.. in fact, I suggest you give anything a read that might challenge your views of history which seem to come from watching Steven Spielberg movies.
Again I ask, why did Deir Yassin happen? To maintain bloodlines?
@HG
“I, commenter…some or all of your great grandchildren will be mixed race.”
hmm so why say a thing like this? You seem to almost delight in it.
“A man points out a historical fact in support of a logical argument and you call it as “50+ years of German bashing””
hmm let me ask this another way..If that granddaughter of the nazi camp commander married a blond, blue eyed german and had four blond, blue eyed kids , how do you think you, the media, etc, would react?
First, what the communists did is just as bad as what the nazi’s did.
Second, by interjecting the communists atrocities into the argument you are trying to avoid directly responding to the issues raised by response to your comments.
Third, Notwithstanding Goodwins Law, a man or women that espouses nazi dogma is a nazi. To wit maintaining blood lines.
Finally, I suggest you get yourself a copy of Darwin’s book on natural selection and a dictionary and try and work through it.
CC, Thank you for allowing Ivystyle to be a place of free speech. I may not agree with all opinions here tonight. But I like to see spirited free speech. Unfortunately it’s under attack.
“a man or women that espouses nazi dogma is a nazi. To wit maintaining blood lines.”
“his heretical statements are proof of his heresy..”
Congrats you’ve earned yourself a seat on the Inquisition! It’s also called circular reasoning, but never mind that!
So you are saying.. let me understand this… even though, apparently, I am a “nazi”… you are saying that anyone who wishes to maintain their bloodline is a nazi. We’re not talking about the means here, but the mere thought.
Is that correct?
“Second, by interjecting the communists atrocities into the argument you are trying to avoid directly responding to the issues raised by response to your comments.”
Nope, I simply ask what was the motivation. Same with Dier Yassin, same with Nazi Germany. People don’t kill other people to maintain their own bloodline. its usually ethnic competition for resources – though of course ‘family’ feuds can be just as vicious – you are conflating the two.
First, the atrocities committed at Deir Yasmin were deplorable just like the atrocities committed by the communists and nazis.
Second, if you want to maintain your blood line that is great. Frankly, I would prefer you keep your blood line in as small a group as possible. I think the world could do well without being exposed to your blood and all that goes with it.
As I get older, I think I get more nostalgic for the 80s and my college days and enjoy seeing these old pictures. Hard to believe how much change there has been in life in the past 30 plus years. However, you could wear the clothes in the pictures and not look out of place today which is a testament to the benefit of Ivy or trad.
Funny how the guy that posted about how “Ivy Style Guys are bummed about diversity” doesn’t realise the fact that, as Confused Trad has said, we’re graced to this place of free speech that CC has upheld. Disappointed that he had to go and do that.
Regarding being able to pinpoint the approximate date of the pics, just looking at the first photo, I would say it’s primarily the haircuts. That is the length and style of hair most guys had in the late 70’s/early 80’s. I would also say the informal stance of some of the people in the picture as well as lapel size and the Nike sneakers a few of them are wearing. Photographic quality usually gives a hint as well but in this case I don’t think that played into determining the time period.
He believes in free speech enough to use his own name, and hence entitle himself to his own views. When you come here with someone else’s name and spout piss-poor rubbish, can you REALLY call it a ‘battle’? Reminds me of those Antifa folks, wearing masks and acting all tough right up til the masks come off. You can certainly do better than that.
Sorry, CC, but your very nice posts about style contrast for me with your rather wearisome and pedestrian political remarks. and one doesn’t have to be a “liberal”- whatever that means these days-to think so. Free speech is great, and please don’t think I mean you should not voice your opinions, but maybe start another blog about politics and leave this one for comments about clothing and life styles. And this is my real name, folks.
How did 1980’s Sewanee photos get into a discussion of “nation and race?” Perhaps, because wearing “traditional” (whatever that means) attire is now considered racist, elitist, and fascist. So, everyone has to look identical to avoid the horrible politically incorrect stigma. Just look at political and other public figures. Most dress down as much as possible.
Why not just impose a mundane unisex uniform on all and end it all?
Not so long ago I was confronted with an observation–that, for reasons one can’t fully explain, the arts and the humanities tend to attract the sort of person who has a soft spot for tradition(s). Add a healthy dose of stubborn amateurism (“Aim to strive, not master”), and you end up with a positively charming place like Sewanee. Charming like a seasoned tweed jacket or an old, rusty Volvo.
Here’s a school where art history, English, and Classics remain popular majors. The better students and professors wear academic gowns. Gothic architecture. As colleges go, about as anachronistic as it gets. And if once upon a time Episcopal Church was “the Republican Party at prayer,” nowadays it’s very much the “(mostly moderate wing of the) Democratic Party at prayer.”
Confusing or conflating modern-day politics (political beliefs) with the sorts of archaic traditions upheld by a place like Sewanee is misguided, to say the least. If it’s traditional in any higher philosophical sense, it’s Burkean. But Burke was a Whig who supported a State Church who tried to persuade the American colonists to remain loyal subjects–loyal to the King, that is. And he supported taxation. Not very 2017 GOP.
@ S.E.: Completely agree. There are few Burkeans these days, I fear. I wish there were more, and more Bill Buckleys and Russell Kirks . Alas. So, let’s stick with style and clothing.
To that good point and in all fairness: I feel sure schools like Middlebury, Williams, Bates, Bucknell, Colby, Denison, Lafayette, Dickinson and Amherst were equally Ivy and/or Preppy throughout the periods referenced.
@Wriggles: your question reminds me of the episode where Jerry Falwell opined loudly about the sexual orientation of a BBC Teletubby. I remember thinking at the time, “If you look at the Teletubbies and all you can think of is who they’re shtupping, you may be a little too focused on sexuality.”
If you go on a men’s clothing blog, see those fantastic early-80s photos from Sewanee and, within 3 posts, feel compelled to hold forth about “race-mixing”, you may be sorting out your own issues in the wrong forum.
I don’t know of any other contributor that we all seem to like and respect as much as Charlottesville, and he thinks this conversation is embarrassing. Let me add that it’s also dull.
PJ (@pjdoughertyiii) – What a very kind thing to say. Thank you. However, for some reason, there are a handful of misfits out there who like to pick fights and lie about who they are. I honestly do not understand. On a (hopefully) brighter note, I am hoping to send Christian a draft post for his consideration soon. Trying to set aside some time this evening to work on it.
NaturalShoulder writes: “As I get older, I think I get more nostalgic for the 80s and my college days and enjoy seeing these old pictures. Hard to believe how much change there has been in life in the past 30 plus years…”
Now, consider that those of us who finished high school in 1967 might have the same nostalgia “cubed”. Of course we all could still buy real Weejuns in the 80s…
You still don’t understand how the first amendment works. It means the government can’t lock you up for what you say. It certainly means I can delete your pointless troll posts.
You’re caught in the trickster loop, and are unwilling to step up to the plate of personal accountability. You have the gift of free speech, but you don’t know how to use it correctly.
You can say anything; doesn’t mean we have to listen. You can come to the playground, but that doesn’t mean anyone will want to play with you.
You either weren’t properly socialized between the ages of 2 and 4 or you’ve got serious character flaws. Seek help, and you can start by cleaning your room and polishing your shoes.
SE
As always thanks for the images. They remind me of my public high school in 1969. No one wore kilts, we had no field hockey teams in KC. We did have pipers wear them at a half time show once.
The word “stodgy” in your title remind me of a 1973 freshly minted freshman pledge wearing bell bottom jeans, Frye boots and a sweater with a large rose embroidered on the chest asked me, “Why do you dress like an old man?”. As a senior active officer I thought this guy has balls. I asked him if he sang or played any musical instruments, he replied ‘No”. Then I asked him “Why do you dress like a rock star?”.
The next saturday he was around the house and I asked him if he wanted to ride to Manhattan, Kansas with me. He was apprehensive because kid napping was sanctioned by our frat. Long story short, I took him to Woody’s an Ivy shop across the street from KSU and created another “clothes horse”.
The “fetishization” that has become the daily normal on here is just plain odd. What’s funny is that our host and fetish-king himself wants to be a “life coach”. If your life-coach plays 1960s “Ivy”-dress up every day, you need a new coach.
@Wriggles – Sewanee is a political lightening rod because of its very specific history. It was founded a few years before the Civil War specifically to provide a safe space where southern boys could go to school and be shielded from the very idea of abolitionism. And it has since then been strongly tied up with the “Lost Cause” mythology that grew up in the late 19th and early 20th century.
CC: “That’s not how I dress, nor am I a fetishist”
CC: (see) Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against their own unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves.
Q: How do you describe your own dress?
A: “In the Ivy League Look I found a genre of clothing that is fairly fixed, which perhaps appeals to my sense of order. But it’s also flexible enough to appeal to all the sides of my personality. It can be cool, elegant, sporty, conservative. I also strongly identify with the approach of being relatively dressed up with casual attire and relatively dressed down with formal attire.
I’ve always taken my inspiration from the past. These days I’m playing with this kind of “beatnik chic” idea, which basically comes down to wearing my Ivy gear with, say, a black corduroy cap, black cable-knit cashmere sweater, and black penny loafers.”
My. God.
CC, care to bless us with more amateur psychology?
Yes, you’re angry at the world for some reason. You work in a dull, unfulfilling job (from what I heard, you represent the adult diaper industry). Inside of you is a part that wants to be self-employed and creative, and you resent people who can do that. Also people who grow and change and transform, as you’re obviously fixed in stone. You’ve been leaving negative comments on the Internet for something like six years. You could have painted a picture or written a book in that amount of time. But, like a trickster, you’re unwilling to take on the challenge of something new for which you fear failure. It’s much easier just to mock others.
I know you would prefer to delete the troll comments than respond to them, but he did have a point. You’re making the same argument that kids make when disinvitimg conservative speakers to colleges.
It’s one thing to psychoanalyze strangers. It’s another to be lazy about it. I’m not angry at the world, but the internet sure has enabled lots of annoying people. I’ve come to understand that most everyone with a public blog believes they should be free from public criticism (or, at least, meaningful, persistent criticism…some is ok because it has to be, just not too much…). As is publicly easy for you to sort out, I did once – years ago – work for a large, global manufacturer that sold, as part of it’s wide medical supplies portfolio, baby and adult diapers. It was actually very interesting work; enjoyable travel, lots of interpersonal interaction, relevant/topical policy work, etc. I learned a lot. The benefits and comp were terrific. I’ve “grown, changed, and transformed” since then, and now work in a entirely different capacity and industry. No, I don’t want to be a self-employed “creative” or freelancer….though most ‘freelancers’ I’ve met tend to imagine that everyone who isn’t one wants to be one…..I’m guessing there’s plenty of psychology at play there. I recognize the great pride and self-assurance you have – you’re a risk-taker. You, Christian, are up to the challenge. You’re oh so willing to publicly pat yourself on your back for your perceived qualities and achievements….all the while repping that “beatnik chic” look of yours. You take it serious…..and you should, you’ve been doing “this” for a very long time.
– first, unless you’re simply a contrarian agitator, aren’t we all here because we have a fetish for trad style?
– second, I’ll paraphrase CC’s discussion of the First Amendment as I did for friends during the time when ‘Duck Dynasty’ was cancelled: the First Amendment protects your right to sound like an a-hole; it doesn’t not protect you from people who will believe (or, other than the government in most cases, act upon their belief) that you actually are one.
Nice to hear the update Andrew, especially that you’ve grown and transformed. I think we’d like to hear more of your insight on society and style rather than wisecracks at the same whipping boys.
As for “beatnik Ivy,” not doing that much anymore, though I wore my navy cap angled backwards yesterday with popped polo and alpaca cable crew. “Ivy chic” is alive and well, however!
Gotta have creative fun with clothes, as well as appreciate their histories.
There’s a Grand Canyon size difference between enjoying and appreciating something – or, simply, being directly/indirectly entertained by it – and treating it as a fetish. Not knowing the difference is part of the problem. I don’t expect fetishizers to enjoy having they’re fetish called out or like me for doing so…..I expect exactly the sort of reactions provided: pseudo-intellectual psychology, comment deleting, delusion, table-turning, group-think, stubbornness masked as conservatism, a lack of taste and style veiled in obsessive research, costume and copy-catting, and so on.
You are correct. However, that is not the standard Christian has advocated when conservative speakers have found themselves unwelcome at certain speaking engagements. I wanted to give Christian the opportunity to clarify, lest anyone think he was a hypocrite.
I’m not following you, Richard. My deleting a troll comment — a very rare thing among the 40,000 approved comments — on the website of which I am the editor aned publisher is akin to administrators at a public university unable to maintain order, and allowing a far-left mob to prevent a conservative speaker from speaking, the so-called heckler’s veto?
“Universities and colleges weren’t causes of aristocracy and wealth; they were products of aristocracy and wealth. Aristocrats didn’t send their children to universities to make sure they got the tools necessary to stay aristocrats — they sent them because it was essentially several years of leisure and only the most well-off could afford such a lifestyle.
The university was never intended to train people for high-wage jobs or to lift them up the economic ladder. At best it was an institution to train the clergy in the Middle Ages and then academics in the industrial age. This is why liberal-arts schools place such heavy emphasis on academic subjects — they were designed to create professors.
As global wealth increased through the Industrial Revolution, aristocrats who were already comfortable in their wealth had two options for their children who were coming of age: A) send them to work, or B) give them some leisure among their same class. The university evolved into an institution to help young aristocratic men to transition into adulthood by moving away from home and studying subjects only the most well-off had the leisure to study. The backgrounds of elite American universities make this obvious. Princeton has “eating clubs”; Penn has “the Philomathean society”; and Yale’s secret society culture is a relic of this era.
This isn’t a conspiracy. It’s simply saying that the universities were never intended or designed for the use to which Americans of the mid-20th century put them. ”
Ann Coulter has plenty of platforms available to her, as do these trolls. By being disimvite to speak somewhere, she is not being denied any rights by the government and she is free to say whatever she wants in other fora. Just not at colleges where it will annoy the administrators.
That appears to be your position towards these trolls.
Well the troll just appears to have hacked Paul’s account and posed as him with his avatar. That’s borderline criminal.
There’s a difference between disinvitation and no-platforming. In one the speaker’s invitation is rescinded; in the other the protestors prevent the event from happening. The latter is especially onerous.
Not sure how that applies here, especially that we now have a troll posting not under the names of famous people, but under members of the Ivy Style community.
rvpress59
Your point is well taken for private institutions, but not for public supported ones. Of all places universities should be places where opinions that hurt one’s feeling should be heard. At least that was how it was when I attended.
No, universities are places where academically valid points should be presented. Maybe there are some people with valid contributions to make who have been deplatformed at a public university and that’s wrong.
I see no difference between shutting out a troll on this site and shutting out a a troll like Ann Coulter, whose rhetoric serves no purpose other than to inflame.
Those people have a right to make whatever argument they want to make and they have plenty of opportunities to do so. That Christian has gone to such lengths in the past to defend her right to “contribute” to a place of learning is shameful if he can’t take a few potshots himself.
… speaking of potshots, my dear Richard, I couldn’t help but notice that when I asked you for a blurb for a work of art I created, you used the opportunity to take a potshot at Trump. Happy to have provided you with that opportunity!
@Christian: Glad to see you delete comments from the troll. That guy is obsessed with insulting and belittling you, your readers, and your commenters. He also impersonates famous people and commenters on your website. He sounds like a really abusive person but is also a real coward for hiding his identity. He definitely is a Grade A troll, but not one who lives under bridges. This guy lives underground in the sewer.
If The most estimable Mr. Press, whose heritage and that of his family regarding Ivy credentials is going to be a whipping boy here because CC sees “liberals” under his bed at night, I truly think that CC should start a political blog a la breitbart and drudge, and let Mr. press, whose background on matters sartorial exceeds the rest of us combined, to take over the comments about ivy clothing and lifestyle.
Richard Meyer
I think we all respect Mr. Press. I know I do, we just have political differences and as gentlemen we can agree to disagree. I’ve had my name used on post by others at Ivy style making fun of my politics or middle class taste, I’ve had posters get personal, but I disrespect or have animists toward no one here. As a journalist, Christian’s dedication to free speech is something I admire a great deal, the only other place I find that on the net is Althouse.
I don’t see them under my bed, but I hate Belgium and bit loafers. If that makes me a bigot so be it.
Richard Meyer
Not sure one can buy Belgians in Kansas City. But, Gucci bit loafers are controlled by statute, only some bank managers can legally wear them. Although there is a legacy clause in the law which states that if any of your ancestors or neighbors have ever played Bocci ball at the city’s Columbus park you are allowed to wear and have the loafers in possession. It’s sort of like Native American fishing and hunting rights. ;-).
I was in federal court. My client was changed with wearing Belgian Loafers ? in Kansas and traveling across state lines while wearing the shoes on route to New York.
GS, thank you for the kind words. If I have any wisdom on this topic, it would simply be to paraphrase an Italian proverb that runs something along the lines of, he who abandons the old for the new knows what he is losing, but not what he will find. We are in a Brave New World, abandoning traditions because they are traditional, and embracing the new because it is new. I fear our posterity will curse us for it.
Thank God for the preppy ’80’s.
And speaking of Sewanee, here’s a photo from the Class of 1967’s 50th reunion at Homecoming/Reunions weekend last weekend. If 1967 is the turning point year, then take a look at how they still show up 50 years later. [Sewanee wasn’t co-ed in 1967]
https://www.flickr.com/photos/sewanee/38160052942/in/album-72157665924200329/
I personally think the main problem with Bean recently has been their quality, which has taken a noticeable dive, though their customer service remains excellent.
“Diversity” pandering will only make things worse. For those claiming that millennials prefer companies like that – that’s nonsense- most successful brands (and fashion magazines) are constantly accused by rent seekers of not being diverse enough – diversity in ads was defacto mandated by the obama administration via EOE when they ludicrously claimed that having too many white models would lead to employment discrimination.
Inevitably having ‘diverse’ ads leads to implied race-mixing, which a lot of people of all ethnicity don’t like
now of course, even dressing ‘wall street’ =white=evil – and nothing will satiate that least of all pandering to it – just look at the confederate statue debacle- which is now the columbus and TR statue debacle and soon to be all white men debacle…
Sure Bean can turn into a ‘globalist’ company – JPress can turn into a hip hop retailer… but what’s the point.
Maybe Bean and go back to its roots, emphasize quality and be ok without having to have hyper-growth. In fact, many back-to-tradition younger folk might pick up on that.
Troll, posting cheap shots under the name of people presumably more well known than you (Dave Rubin, now Paul Joseph Watson) very bad for your mental health! Your psyche is taking note and you will have bad dreams tonight of cowardice.
Speak your logos, bucko!
I’ve been exploring a concept for a side career as a life coach, and was going to reach out to any miserable wretches in our FB group to see if there are any volunteers to try the “Chens method.”
You look like a good place to start. Email me if you’d like to stop being a pathetic weasel and start being a person who can be respected — chiefly by yourself.
I graduated from my CT boarding school not three years ago, and these photos resonate with me. We would all wear our oxfords crammed into slim-cut chinos or forest green cords. For school, we wore Sperry (and the New York kids would wear Gucci bit loafers or Tod’s drivers), but after class it was Nikes, Tritons, Rainbows, or Bean boots.
@ I, Commenter: what’s your age, if you don’t mind me asking? Or, if your’e shy, who was in the White House the year you graduated from high school?
“Paul,” you forgot to add; “conservatism is the new counter culture!”
Yikes, I like going to Ivy Style for great inspiration about clothing, not to get badgered with the usual political nonsense I see daily elsewhere.
Frankly Christian, it’s slightly disappointing that a man who is as thoughtful and educated as yourself decides to engage the silly troll who has posted 2 quips from alt-right figures with that much vigor and just ignore the commenter who complained about race-mixing as if that is as normal of an opinion as preferring to wear collar pins!
I usually post as “Mountain Cat Prep”, but since that would just make me a “pathetic weasel”, I’ll use most of my real name. I’ve been visiting Ivy Style regularly since 2013, and just like the great fashion trends of the 50’s and 60’s, I’m pining to go back to that simpler time in your website.
Has anyone else seen Abercrombie’s new ad campaign commercial? They’re come a long way since outfitting Hemingway but the products they now carry are more pared down and somewhat nice, despite the obvious lack of good quality.
https://www.abercrombie.com/shop/us/br/ThisIsTheTime?icmp=ICT:HOL17:D:HP:0:LP:CAM:OctW2ThisIsTheTime
@Morgan M.: today is apparently the day we both – accidentally or otherwise – decided to step out and be ourselves. I, too, relish heated debates about patch pockets and hook vents as an escape from real life. My sense is that it is the younger among us that feel otherwise.
That Steal Your Face better be the model’s personal shirt, because otherwise Jerry’s estate hasn’t licensed it to a mall brand selling skinny jeans and “hoodies”, and that’s just about more than I can take.
has*
@ pjdoughertyiii
I was in college a few years after those Sewanee photos.
Seems that everything, even the NFL has been politicized and its inescapable, everything is about identity whether we like it or not…
Christian,
I am delighted you’ve decided to join me in the war against Cultural Marxism and become an auditor in my patented method of Petersonetics. Now go forth and destroy those SP’s. Wait, I mean, post-modernist snowflakes.
Dr. Dad
@ I Commenter: of course everything is about identity; however much we argue about collar lengths or cuffs on flannels, for instance, we’re all on Ivy Style because we presumably agree that this stuff ain’t “just clothes”. It carries some personal meaning to us – it represents something we long for, or grate against, or are nostalgic about, or whatever else. That’s why it’s fun.
The Sewanee photos are great. I was at W&L around that time and I think most of the pictures could have been swapped into my class yearbook and no one would have noticed the difference. On another note, I would also be happy if the troll losers were evicted. There may be a place for a bit of good natured politics, but this stuff is simply embarrassing.
Great pics. Makes me nostalgic for those late 70’s/early 80’s preppy days. Was just looking though my old High School year books from that period and the clothes were great – LL Bean flannel shirts, OCBDs, Levis, cords, shetlands, bluchers, Bean boots, ribbon belts, etc. It’s a shame that most kids don’t dress that well anymore.
Pic 9 of the DJ’s could be (but isn’t) a very young Fagen and Becker.
C-Ville,
I feel sure you’re right about W&L.
A few things.
If you guys can’t handle disagreements with other guys WHO LOOK EXACTLY LIKE YOU, then no wonder our nation is so polarized.
Ivy-Style.com has contemporary relevance — unlike escapist preppy sites — and I think it’s therapeutic for righties and lefties to encounter each other and hash things out. Perhaps they can then go forth into the world with greater skills of understanding and compromise. But probably not.
As I’ve noted before, I’ve been at this a long time: tens of thousands of posts, comments, and Facebook threads. The kind of guy who has a “no politics!” freakout is always left of center; I’ve never seen a conservative demand silence when a political or social issue comes up. Their fault is being too quick on the draw and argumentative, as opposed to hyperventilating when they encounter the opposition. Safe spaces on campus were created by this type of utopian leftist who wants protection from the real world of both jerks and articulate people with different ideas.
As for Dave Rubin, he’s a gay Jewish liberal who happens to be about the most likable and reasonable guy out there, and if someone thinks that makes him an “alt-right” bad guy such person is nuts and can’t be reasoned with.
Speaking of which, we’ve had a troll lately who posts under the name of figures such as Rubin, Peterson and Watson and makes snide remarks mocking the right. Above I tried to help this fellow, but, like stray cats, it’s a very low percentage success rate. He is acting out the shadow figure of the trickster archetype, which is extremely unhealthy. He mocks his peers as well as famous people higher up the competence hierarchy, but the trickster, as a form of boy psychology, is not able to develop into a mature man and assume responsbility. He does not wish to usurp the king and take his throne, he is only capable of jokes and mockery. As a long-term life strategy this is simply devastating; Tradsville’s most notorious troll, “Russell Street” or “Jimmy Frost-Mellor” seems by all accounts to be a certifiable sociopath. There’s a reason for the cliché of the troll/trickster as a loser living in his parents’ basement. He is both literally and figuratively underground, not in the light where a meaningful life is led.
Finally, as for race-mixing, I’m all for it!
I knew the this was Sewanee when I saw the second pic. Was a dead give away. Also, I’m a huge Dead head and I don’t know how I feel about A&F selling steal your face t-shirts. Target already does this so it’s not a huge shock, but somewhat confusing since the kids at my university mostly do not know any Dead music and certainly they most do not like it.
“Finally, as for race-mixing, I’m all for it!”
But a lot of people aren’t – ever ask an East Asian guy what he thinks about all the east asian women dating white guys? , like wanting, say Spain to to Spanish- what was a common sense instinctual feeling has now been demonized. I can accept that someone people want to race mix- but race mixers can’t seem to accept that other people object to this most personal of choices.
@pjdoughertyiii
As many have pointed out here – the ‘ivy’ or ‘trad’ look was never polarized. Yes you might find more conservatives dressed in brooks brothers and more liberals dressed like hippies, but now for example, I believe some wall street firms were criticized for, well, dressing like wall street firms traditionally did.
CC, for what it’s worth I come here not just for the ivy style, but for the conversation that includes politics and social issues. I find it enlightening, especially when I do not agree with all the comments.
I commenter, it doesn’t matter whether you are asking a hypothetical “East Asian guy” or a blackshirt, opposition to race-mixing is an ugly and indefensible position. The idea that your argument is respectable because other people may exist who agree with it is terribly poor reasoning and can be applied to any argument.
“opposition to race-mixing is an ugly and indefensible position. ”
well I think you kind of made my point. You simply name call. What about, for example, the Parsi in India whose numbers are less than 200,000, is it ‘indefensible’ for them to want maintain their ethnic heritage?
What about someone who’s ethnically Askanazi jewish and wants to maintain that heritage?
“The idea that your argument is respectable because other people may exist who agree with it is terribly poor reasoning”
that is not what I said at all. Maintaining blood lines is as old as human history – traditionally the only people who opposed it were people trying to wipe out other peoples. .. to demonize maintaining bloodlines is to demonize human nature.
Yes other (bad) things like rape, murder, are as old as human history but those are committing acts of violence against another person, whereas your asserting that of maintaining ethnic heritage is indefensible.
Well, actually he’s right. Most of the world’s races and cultures marry their own — including Baby Boomer white liberals, for example. Because of the way identity politics in the USA in 2017 works, with the oppressor/oppressed Marxist dynamic, it’s only an indefensible position for whites to believe that intermarriage is taboo. Nobody thinks it’s a national issue if most Jews frown upon their peers marrying the goyim, or if the Egyptian population of my New York City neighborhood isn’t marrying blacks, Asians and Hispanics at an acceptable rate.
Years ago a friend told me a story about a girl he knew who was Chinese American. Her parents’ attitude towards her future husband went something like this:
Please marry a Chinese guy.
If you marry a white guy, we will be very disappointed.
If you marry a black guy, we will disown you.
If you marry a Korean, we will kill ourselves.
A choice of one’s romantic partner is obviously a very personal one, and if someone makes shared cultural background a priority there is nothing wrong with that. But that’s quite different from viewing the romantic choices of others in a dim light based on whatever cultural differences they might have. Perhaps I’m mistaken but from the tone of your comments you seem to take offense to the general idea interracial romance, down to your choice of using “race mixers” as an epithet.
Again, your historic arguments are so broad as to be meaningless. Quite a great deal of genocide happened in the last century based on the idea of “maintaining blood lines.”
^above as reply to I, commenter.
Those Egyptians, Jews and the Chinese American parents in your examples may be well-meaning and motivated by some notions besides dislike of the “other”, but they will lose over the long run completely regardless of whether their views are politically correct or not. (White baby boomers in your example, at least the women, are finished passing along their genes since the youngest are over 50…they aren’t going to engage in any more mixing). Look at Hawaii – distinct ethnicities moved there in the relatively recent past and huge portions of the population are now “mixed.” The anti-race mixers (I realize you aren’t one) are fighting against sex…I’ll give good odds on sex to win out.
What the hell happened here.
By the way, the most extreme example of sex winning out that I know of is that Amon Goth, the Nazi camp commander depicted in Schindler’s list, has a granddaughter who is half Nigerian. Quite simply, people’s views on “race mixing” ain’t going to matter.
Exactly, it’s the future of America and of the West (not other parts of the world) — except the part of the future where all the different groups fight amongs themselves instead of having sex.
@JMG
What happened here? It looks to me like a group of college-educated men in buttondowns, striped ties and tweed jackets started having a discussion about the world.
If you say so.
“The anti-race mixers (I realize you aren’t one) are fighting against sex…I’ll give good odds on sex to win out.”
Nope depends on the culture – Spanish colonizers interbred with indians and are mixed race, English frowned upon it and with the exception of rare cases, or rape/.kidnapping (Many Indian tribes highly valued and thus kidnapped white women) race mixing was unknown. My family has been in america 300+ years, including the deep south and west, just did a 23 and me – 100% European.
“By the way, the most extreme example of sex winning out that I know of is that Amon Goth, the Nazi camp commander depicted in Schindler’s list, has a granddaughter who is half Nigerian”
Hmm you think 50+ years of German bashing has anything to do with it? You’re ‘racist’ if you want to marry another german.
“If you marry a Korean, we will kill ourselves.”
I miss the days when we could laugh about those jokes in public.
@Eric Twardzik
most genocide happened and continues to happen because of ethnic competition not maintaining bloodlines. Deir Yassin didn’t happen because Zionists thought Jewish women were going to marry Palestinian goy. In fact, in most (but not all) cases, religious conflict usually has an ethnic undertone. Israel Palestine, Northern Ireland are as much ethnic conflicts as religious ones.
” and if someone makes shared cultural background a priority there is nothing wrong with that.”
and what if they want to make ethnic background a priority?
A bunch of young men in sportcoats and ties, and yet somehow I instantly knew that first photo was taken when I was in school, that is to say when Ronald Reagan was in the White House, and not when Jack Kennedy was. Is it maybe their haircuts or the way they carry themselves?
Boys at my prep school typically wore an OCBD, a crew neck Shetland Sweater, Levi’s button-front straight-leg 501 jeans or khakis, and on their feet either Weejuns, Topsiders, or Adidas or Nike or New Balance athletic shoes.
I. Commenter
Hitler and his ilk wanted to maintain blood lines ie the aryan race and they wiped out 5 million people not counting the men and women killed in WW II. It is called the “Holocaust”.
Go sell your spurious that is false bastard logic on another street corner.
” and I think it’s therapeutic for righties and lefties to encounter each other and hash things out”
@Christian
I know it’s thankless task to try to be the host of such a place!
Joan Baez could sing the night they drove old dixie down, Tom Petty (dyed in the wool liberal democrat) could hang a confederate flag and the village voice could have Pat Buchanan on the cover and say “you may disagree with him, but he’s got some great ideas to help american workers”
“Hitler and his ilk wanted to maintain blood lines ie the aryan race and they wiped out 5 million people not counting the men and women killed in WW II. It is called the “Holocaust”.”
I guess Goodwins law does apply anymore so I’ll have to play on…
So, what about the 20 million wiped out by communists prior to Hitler, was that about maintaining bloodlines. ?
So, tell me, why did Deir Yassin happen then?
” Is it maybe their haircuts or the way they carry themselves?”
interesting comment, I sensed the same thing (i could tell it was not 60s but when my youth. Could it be the photographic quality as well? I do think there’s something to ‘the way they carry themselves’ but i can put my finger on it.
I, commenter…some or all of your great grandchildren will be mixed race.
I Commenter
A man points out a historical fact in support of a logical argument and you call it as “50+ years of German bashing” Really, are adhomony attacks and the big lie all you have to offer?
@H. Korn
I implied that her motivation might be to “cleanse’ herself of her nazi grandfather. I based this on my travels to India and reading a very poignant book about post colonial English going to India to ‘cleanse’ themselves of their colonial past by doing things like this – oh by the way the book was written by an Indian, it’s called Karma Cola, I suggest you give it a read.. in fact, I suggest you give anything a read that might challenge your views of history which seem to come from watching Steven Spielberg movies.
Again I ask, why did Deir Yassin happen? To maintain bloodlines?
@HG
“I, commenter…some or all of your great grandchildren will be mixed race.”
hmm so why say a thing like this? You seem to almost delight in it.
“A man points out a historical fact in support of a logical argument and you call it as “50+ years of German bashing””
hmm let me ask this another way..If that granddaughter of the nazi camp commander married a blond, blue eyed german and had four blond, blue eyed kids , how do you think you, the media, etc, would react?
Why do you even know that she married a nigerian?
I Commenter
First, what the communists did is just as bad as what the nazi’s did.
Second, by interjecting the communists atrocities into the argument you are trying to avoid directly responding to the issues raised by response to your comments.
Third, Notwithstanding Goodwins Law, a man or women that espouses nazi dogma is a nazi. To wit maintaining blood lines.
Finally, I suggest you get yourself a copy of Darwin’s book on natural selection and a dictionary and try and work through it.
My mother’s family is Southern on both sides, but they never once served a meal that included adhomony.
CC, Thank you for allowing Ivystyle to be a place of free speech. I may not agree with all opinions here tonight. But I like to see spirited free speech. Unfortunately it’s under attack.
“a man or women that espouses nazi dogma is a nazi. To wit maintaining blood lines.”
“his heretical statements are proof of his heresy..”
Congrats you’ve earned yourself a seat on the Inquisition! It’s also called circular reasoning, but never mind that!
So you are saying.. let me understand this… even though, apparently, I am a “nazi”… you are saying that anyone who wishes to maintain their bloodline is a nazi. We’re not talking about the means here, but the mere thought.
Is that correct?
“Second, by interjecting the communists atrocities into the argument you are trying to avoid directly responding to the issues raised by response to your comments.”
Nope, I simply ask what was the motivation. Same with Dier Yassin, same with Nazi Germany. People don’t kill other people to maintain their own bloodline. its usually ethnic competition for resources – though of course ‘family’ feuds can be just as vicious – you are conflating the two.
Paul, see, now that you’re speaking your logos when you get an LOL it really means something!
@Confused Trad
You’re welcome. It’s a thankless job which must mean there’s some nobility in it somewhere.
I Commenter
First, the atrocities committed at Deir Yasmin were deplorable just like the atrocities committed by the communists and nazis.
Second, if you want to maintain your blood line that is great. Frankly, I would prefer you keep your blood line in as small a group as possible. I think the world could do well without being exposed to your blood and all that goes with it.
CC: are you offering one in response to my lame pun?
Somebody get Laguna Beach Trad on the horn, he could really add to this thread.
Somebody get Henry the Contestwinner over here, we need his wisdom added to the mix. Desperately.
As I get older, I think I get more nostalgic for the 80s and my college days and enjoy seeing these old pictures. Hard to believe how much change there has been in life in the past 30 plus years. However, you could wear the clothes in the pictures and not look out of place today which is a testament to the benefit of Ivy or trad.
Funny how the guy that posted about how “Ivy Style Guys are bummed about diversity” doesn’t realise the fact that, as Confused Trad has said, we’re graced to this place of free speech that CC has upheld. Disappointed that he had to go and do that.
If Christian is so dedicated to free speech, why does he keep deleting my comments? That’s not a huge win in the battle of ideas.
Regarding being able to pinpoint the approximate date of the pics, just looking at the first photo, I would say it’s primarily the haircuts. That is the length and style of hair most guys had in the late 70’s/early 80’s. I would also say the informal stance of some of the people in the picture as well as lapel size and the Nike sneakers a few of them are wearing. Photographic quality usually gives a hint as well but in this case I don’t think that played into determining the time period.
@’Dave Rubin’
He believes in free speech enough to use his own name, and hence entitle himself to his own views. When you come here with someone else’s name and spout piss-poor rubbish, can you REALLY call it a ‘battle’? Reminds me of those Antifa folks, wearing masks and acting all tough right up til the masks come off. You can certainly do better than that.
Sorry, CC, but your very nice posts about style contrast for me with your rather wearisome and pedestrian political remarks. and one doesn’t have to be a “liberal”- whatever that means these days-to think so. Free speech is great, and please don’t think I mean you should not voice your opinions, but maybe start another blog about politics and leave this one for comments about clothing and life styles. And this is my real name, folks.
The pictures from The University Of The South are great, BTW.
How did 1980’s Sewanee photos get into a discussion of “nation and race?” Perhaps, because wearing “traditional” (whatever that means) attire is now considered racist, elitist, and fascist. So, everyone has to look identical to avoid the horrible politically incorrect stigma. Just look at political and other public figures. Most dress down as much as possible.
Why not just impose a mundane unisex uniform on all and end it all?
The world is in a bad way.
Not so long ago I was confronted with an observation–that, for reasons one can’t fully explain, the arts and the humanities tend to attract the sort of person who has a soft spot for tradition(s). Add a healthy dose of stubborn amateurism (“Aim to strive, not master”), and you end up with a positively charming place like Sewanee. Charming like a seasoned tweed jacket or an old, rusty Volvo.
Here’s a school where art history, English, and Classics remain popular majors. The better students and professors wear academic gowns. Gothic architecture. As colleges go, about as anachronistic as it gets. And if once upon a time Episcopal Church was “the Republican Party at prayer,” nowadays it’s very much the “(mostly moderate wing of the) Democratic Party at prayer.”
Confusing or conflating modern-day politics (political beliefs) with the sorts of archaic traditions upheld by a place like Sewanee is misguided, to say the least. If it’s traditional in any higher philosophical sense, it’s Burkean. But Burke was a Whig who supported a State Church who tried to persuade the American colonists to remain loyal subjects–loyal to the King, that is. And he supported taxation. Not very 2017 GOP.
@ S.E.: Completely agree. There are few Burkeans these days, I fear. I wish there were more, and more Bill Buckleys and Russell Kirks . Alas. So, let’s stick with style and clothing.
Yes.
To that good point and in all fairness: I feel sure schools like Middlebury, Williams, Bates, Bucknell, Colby, Denison, Lafayette, Dickinson and Amherst were equally Ivy and/or Preppy throughout the periods referenced.
@Wriggles: your question reminds me of the episode where Jerry Falwell opined loudly about the sexual orientation of a BBC Teletubby. I remember thinking at the time, “If you look at the Teletubbies and all you can think of is who they’re shtupping, you may be a little too focused on sexuality.”
If you go on a men’s clothing blog, see those fantastic early-80s photos from Sewanee and, within 3 posts, feel compelled to hold forth about “race-mixing”, you may be sorting out your own issues in the wrong forum.
I don’t know of any other contributor that we all seem to like and respect as much as Charlottesville, and he thinks this conversation is embarrassing. Let me add that it’s also dull.
PJ (@pjdoughertyiii) – What a very kind thing to say. Thank you. However, for some reason, there are a handful of misfits out there who like to pick fights and lie about who they are. I honestly do not understand. On a (hopefully) brighter note, I am hoping to send Christian a draft post for his consideration soon. Trying to set aside some time this evening to work on it.
Charlottesville is a gentleman.
NaturalShoulder writes: “As I get older, I think I get more nostalgic for the 80s and my college days and enjoy seeing these old pictures. Hard to believe how much change there has been in life in the past 30 plus years…”
Now, consider that those of us who finished high school in 1967 might have the same nostalgia “cubed”. Of course we all could still buy real Weejuns in the 80s…
“Dave Rubin”
You still don’t understand how the first amendment works. It means the government can’t lock you up for what you say. It certainly means I can delete your pointless troll posts.
You’re caught in the trickster loop, and are unwilling to step up to the plate of personal accountability. You have the gift of free speech, but you don’t know how to use it correctly.
You can say anything; doesn’t mean we have to listen. You can come to the playground, but that doesn’t mean anyone will want to play with you.
You either weren’t properly socialized between the ages of 2 and 4 or you’ve got serious character flaws. Seek help, and you can start by cleaning your room and polishing your shoes.
SE
As always thanks for the images. They remind me of my public high school in 1969. No one wore kilts, we had no field hockey teams in KC. We did have pipers wear them at a half time show once.
The word “stodgy” in your title remind me of a 1973 freshly minted freshman pledge wearing bell bottom jeans, Frye boots and a sweater with a large rose embroidered on the chest asked me, “Why do you dress like an old man?”. As a senior active officer I thought this guy has balls. I asked him if he sang or played any musical instruments, he replied ‘No”. Then I asked him “Why do you dress like a rock star?”.
The next saturday he was around the house and I asked him if he wanted to ride to Manhattan, Kansas with me. He was apprehensive because kid napping was sanctioned by our frat. Long story short, I took him to Woody’s an Ivy shop across the street from KSU and created another “clothes horse”.
Free speech, there is never enough.
The “fetishization” that has become the daily normal on here is just plain odd. What’s funny is that our host and fetish-king himself wants to be a “life coach”. If your life-coach plays 1960s “Ivy”-dress up every day, you need a new coach.
@Wriggles – Sewanee is a political lightening rod because of its very specific history. It was founded a few years before the Civil War specifically to provide a safe space where southern boys could go to school and be shielded from the very idea of abolitionism. And it has since then been strongly tied up with the “Lost Cause” mythology that grew up in the late 19th and early 20th century.
That’s not how I dress, Andrew, nor I am a fetishist.
On the other hand, you need my help badly. Your issues with Fred, Jack and myself can be attributed to what’s called projection:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
CC: “That’s not how I dress, nor am I a fetishist”
CC: (see) Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against their own unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves.
Christian, good Lord.
“Why not just impose a mundane unisex uniform on all and end it all?”
Hasn’t that been tried? The Mao suit?
and, CC interviewed in 2013:
Q: How do you describe your own dress?
A: “In the Ivy League Look I found a genre of clothing that is fairly fixed, which perhaps appeals to my sense of order. But it’s also flexible enough to appeal to all the sides of my personality. It can be cool, elegant, sporty, conservative. I also strongly identify with the approach of being relatively dressed up with casual attire and relatively dressed down with formal attire.
I’ve always taken my inspiration from the past. These days I’m playing with this kind of “beatnik chic” idea, which basically comes down to wearing my Ivy gear with, say, a black corduroy cap, black cable-knit cashmere sweater, and black penny loafers.”
My. God.
CC, care to bless us with more amateur psychology?
Yes, you’re angry at the world for some reason. You work in a dull, unfulfilling job (from what I heard, you represent the adult diaper industry). Inside of you is a part that wants to be self-employed and creative, and you resent people who can do that. Also people who grow and change and transform, as you’re obviously fixed in stone. You’ve been leaving negative comments on the Internet for something like six years. You could have painted a picture or written a book in that amount of time. But, like a trickster, you’re unwilling to take on the challenge of something new for which you fear failure. It’s much easier just to mock others.
Christian,
I know you would prefer to delete the troll comments than respond to them, but he did have a point. You’re making the same argument that kids make when disinvitimg conservative speakers to colleges.
It’s one thing to psychoanalyze strangers. It’s another to be lazy about it. I’m not angry at the world, but the internet sure has enabled lots of annoying people. I’ve come to understand that most everyone with a public blog believes they should be free from public criticism (or, at least, meaningful, persistent criticism…some is ok because it has to be, just not too much…). As is publicly easy for you to sort out, I did once – years ago – work for a large, global manufacturer that sold, as part of it’s wide medical supplies portfolio, baby and adult diapers. It was actually very interesting work; enjoyable travel, lots of interpersonal interaction, relevant/topical policy work, etc. I learned a lot. The benefits and comp were terrific. I’ve “grown, changed, and transformed” since then, and now work in a entirely different capacity and industry. No, I don’t want to be a self-employed “creative” or freelancer….though most ‘freelancers’ I’ve met tend to imagine that everyone who isn’t one wants to be one…..I’m guessing there’s plenty of psychology at play there. I recognize the great pride and self-assurance you have – you’re a risk-taker. You, Christian, are up to the challenge. You’re oh so willing to publicly pat yourself on your back for your perceived qualities and achievements….all the while repping that “beatnik chic” look of yours. You take it serious…..and you should, you’ve been doing “this” for a very long time.
And Charlottesville thought it was bad before …
Nevertheless, a couple of thoughts:
– first, unless you’re simply a contrarian agitator, aren’t we all here because we have a fetish for trad style?
– second, I’ll paraphrase CC’s discussion of the First Amendment as I did for friends during the time when ‘Duck Dynasty’ was cancelled: the First Amendment protects your right to sound like an a-hole; it doesn’t not protect you from people who will believe (or, other than the government in most cases, act upon their belief) that you actually are one.
does not*
Nice to hear the update Andrew, especially that you’ve grown and transformed. I think we’d like to hear more of your insight on society and style rather than wisecracks at the same whipping boys.
As for “beatnik Ivy,” not doing that much anymore, though I wore my navy cap angled backwards yesterday with popped polo and alpaca cable crew. “Ivy chic” is alive and well, however!
Gotta have creative fun with clothes, as well as appreciate their histories.
There’s a Grand Canyon size difference between enjoying and appreciating something – or, simply, being directly/indirectly entertained by it – and treating it as a fetish. Not knowing the difference is part of the problem. I don’t expect fetishizers to enjoy having they’re fetish called out or like me for doing so…..I expect exactly the sort of reactions provided: pseudo-intellectual psychology, comment deleting, delusion, table-turning, group-think, stubbornness masked as conservatism, a lack of taste and style veiled in obsessive research, costume and copy-catting, and so on.
Paul,
You are correct. However, that is not the standard Christian has advocated when conservative speakers have found themselves unwelcome at certain speaking engagements. I wanted to give Christian the opportunity to clarify, lest anyone think he was a hypocrite.
Wait, you’re not talking about me, are you? After I tried to make nice with you? “Pseudo-intellectual psychology” maybe ; )
I’m not following you, Richard. My deleting a troll comment — a very rare thing among the 40,000 approved comments — on the website of which I am the editor aned publisher is akin to administrators at a public university unable to maintain order, and allowing a far-left mob to prevent a conservative speaker from speaking, the so-called heckler’s veto?
cameron
“Universities and colleges weren’t causes of aristocracy and wealth; they were products of aristocracy and wealth. Aristocrats didn’t send their children to universities to make sure they got the tools necessary to stay aristocrats — they sent them because it was essentially several years of leisure and only the most well-off could afford such a lifestyle.
The university was never intended to train people for high-wage jobs or to lift them up the economic ladder. At best it was an institution to train the clergy in the Middle Ages and then academics in the industrial age. This is why liberal-arts schools place such heavy emphasis on academic subjects — they were designed to create professors.
As global wealth increased through the Industrial Revolution, aristocrats who were already comfortable in their wealth had two options for their children who were coming of age: A) send them to work, or B) give them some leisure among their same class. The university evolved into an institution to help young aristocratic men to transition into adulthood by moving away from home and studying subjects only the most well-off had the leisure to study. The backgrounds of elite American universities make this obvious. Princeton has “eating clubs”; Penn has “the Philomathean society”; and Yale’s secret society culture is a relic of this era.
This isn’t a conspiracy. It’s simply saying that the universities were never intended or designed for the use to which Americans of the mid-20th century put them. ”
https://medium.com/the-mission/why-havent-you-left-school-c99435b739ef
The post at 2:52 about SJWs and “whipping boys”, attributed to me and using my avatar, is not me. Just FYI.
Ann Coulter has plenty of platforms available to her, as do these trolls. By being disimvite to speak somewhere, she is not being denied any rights by the government and she is free to say whatever she wants in other fora. Just not at colleges where it will annoy the administrators.
That appears to be your position towards these trolls.
Well the troll just appears to have hacked Paul’s account and posed as him with his avatar. That’s borderline criminal.
There’s a difference between disinvitation and no-platforming. In one the speaker’s invitation is rescinded; in the other the protestors prevent the event from happening. The latter is especially onerous.
Not sure how that applies here, especially that we now have a troll posting not under the names of famous people, but under members of the Ivy Style community.
rvpress59
Your point is well taken for private institutions, but not for public supported ones. Of all places universities should be places where opinions that hurt one’s feeling should be heard. At least that was how it was when I attended.
What’s changed since you attended is that now words are considered violence.
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/07/why-its-a-bad-idea-to-tell-students-words-are-violence/533970/
No, universities are places where academically valid points should be presented. Maybe there are some people with valid contributions to make who have been deplatformed at a public university and that’s wrong.
I see no difference between shutting out a troll on this site and shutting out a a troll like Ann Coulter, whose rhetoric serves no purpose other than to inflame.
Those people have a right to make whatever argument they want to make and they have plenty of opportunities to do so. That Christian has gone to such lengths in the past to defend her right to “contribute” to a place of learning is shameful if he can’t take a few potshots himself.
One man’s intellectual is another man’s troll. “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”
… speaking of potshots, my dear Richard, I couldn’t help but notice that when I asked you for a blurb for a work of art I created, you used the opportunity to take a potshot at Trump. Happy to have provided you with that opportunity!
One big happy Ivy family!
@Christian: Glad to see you delete comments from the troll. That guy is obsessed with insulting and belittling you, your readers, and your commenters. He also impersonates famous people and commenters on your website. He sounds like a really abusive person but is also a real coward for hiding his identity. He definitely is a Grade A troll, but not one who lives under bridges. This guy lives underground in the sewer.
Mac McConnell
Is that quotation from George Orwell’s book The Animal Farm?
CC & Richard
Please remember that “A house divided against it’s self cannot stand”.
Typo — should be itself
Mac McConnell
Have you read Orwell’s short essay, “Politics and the English Language”. If not, I strongly recommend you take a look at the essay.
If The most estimable Mr. Press, whose heritage and that of his family regarding Ivy credentials is going to be a whipping boy here because CC sees “liberals” under his bed at night, I truly think that CC should start a political blog a la breitbart and drudge, and let Mr. press, whose background on matters sartorial exceeds the rest of us combined, to take over the comments about ivy clothing and lifestyle.
I believe Ms. Coulter is living rent free in Mr. Press’ head.
Will
H. Korn
Yes Orwell. I’ve read lots of Orwell, but it’s been long ago. I will check out the essay, thanks.
Richard Meyer
I think we all respect Mr. Press. I know I do, we just have political differences and as gentlemen we can agree to disagree. I’ve had my name used on post by others at Ivy style making fun of my politics or middle class taste, I’ve had posters get personal, but I disrespect or have animists toward no one here. As a journalist, Christian’s dedication to free speech is something I admire a great deal, the only other place I find that on the net is Althouse.
I don’t see them under my bed, but I hate Belgium and bit loafers. If that makes me a bigot so be it.
Well said Mac. I also share the same distaste of Belgium and bit loafers.
Aw, my heart just melts when you guys come together in mutual antipathy.
Mac McConnell
You are welcome. Bye the Bye, I wore my black bit loafers to Court today.
CC
Please take a look at this
http://www.timex.com/vintage-marlin/TW2R47900VQ.html
It really took Timex along time!!
H. Korn
What were you charged with? 😉
I like Belgians and (non-Gucci) bit loafers. But I’m not really that Ivy, anyway.
Richard Meyer
Not sure one can buy Belgians in Kansas City. But, Gucci bit loafers are controlled by statute, only some bank managers can legally wear them. Although there is a legacy clause in the law which states that if any of your ancestors or neighbors have ever played Bocci ball at the city’s Columbus park you are allowed to wear and have the loafers in possession. It’s sort of like Native American fishing and hunting rights. ;-).
Have a great weekend guys and girls.
Mac McConnell
I was in federal court. My client was changed with wearing Belgian Loafers ? in Kansas and traveling across state lines while wearing the shoes on route to New York.
GS, thank you for the kind words. If I have any wisdom on this topic, it would simply be to paraphrase an Italian proverb that runs something along the lines of, he who abandons the old for the new knows what he is losing, but not what he will find. We are in a Brave New World, abandoning traditions because they are traditional, and embracing the new because it is new. I fear our posterity will curse us for it.
Seriously channeling the spirit of Jordan Peterson there, Chensvold. Not that I’m complaining.
Incredibly insightful, Henry and better late than never!